There's a difference between surrendering and going to war.
Combs: Is there any chance for the
voice of reason to make itself heard?
Buckley: Where is it?
Bl RT: Congressman Combs will be
Combs: In the first place, I should like
to quarrel with Mr. Buckley's reading
from one of the prophets, let us sa\. of
the anti-Communist movement. Mr. Vi il-
liam F. Buckley, Jr.. in which he refer-
to the opponents of Senator McCarthy
discrediting him. Of course, that is not
what happened. Senator McCarthy discredited himself, and performed upon
himself an injury and ei disservice which
lav quite beyond the possibilities of his
opponents to inflict damage.
Now, the question, I lake it, is not
whether Senator McCarthy should come
hack hut whether he will come back.
Ill RT: Completely.
Combs: I am somewhat restricted in
mv argument but nevertheless I'll put
il in thi- wav.
Ill RT: You can answer that question
in the form: "Should Senator McCarth.
come back." and it would be perfectly
CoMBS: Well, of course, he should not.
There is. in my mind, no cavil about thai.
However, I am now aboul to annihilate
Mr. Buckley in one respect. Yes sir, I go
along with Mr. Buckle) in his reference
not to the satellite speech but in bis oblique reference to a previous speech made
hv Senator McCarthy nn lhe question
of the administration's Asian policy. It
weis as destructive, as cogently reasoned
and as accurate a piece of work as I believe anvone has ever delivered on the
Boor e.f the I'nited States Senate — an
almosl anatomical dissection of the vacillating and the wobbling of the administration's \sian policy. \nil it was,
moreover, a dispassionate piece of work.
Had Senator McCarthy limited himself to a work of comparable intellectual
integritv during the time that he occupied the spotlight, he mighl have performed a ver) valuable service.
At the present I submit that there is
almost no chance whatever of his ever
coming back because of two thing-: In
the first place, he has. as these gentlemen
have described it, he must have a climate
which is favorable to his operations.
That era, that day, is past.
\\ ■■ had something like it in the Mitchell Palmer Red hunt days of the 1920's
.unl once the hysteria died down it weis
impossible to rekindle it. and about five
years later all of those whn had taken
the lead in that particular Red hunt began slinking around apologetically.
I'm not suggesting that there is an
exact analogy because I believe there to
be a more real Communist menace now.
or there was, than was true in the days
of Mitchell Palmer. Bul it is impossible
to recreate the spirit and the atmosphere
in which Senator McCarthy flourished.
Moreover, he can't come back ...
Buckley: Thanks to McCarthy.
Combs: Oh. I don't think so at all.
Buckley: McCarthy has fixed it so
that we shall never again have so many
derelictions of the kind lhat will create
the atmosphere in which he moved.
COMBS: I believe his contribution to
the cause of anti-communism was nil.
I don't think he ever did anything.
Buckley: You're quite right in saying it's never going to be that bad, thanks
COMBS: I didn't sav thanks to Mc-
Carthy. Thai's an interpolation of your
own diplomatic thinking.
RCRT: I think we should give our gue-l
the opportunity, Mr. de 'toledano, to
comment on the comments he has beard
before going on to the nexl question
which i- \er> relevant to mir topic.
de TOLEDANO: I would say this, and I
don't expect lo get emv agreemenl frnm
George Combs, lhal Senator McCarthy
ha- heen lhe target of probably the most
outlandish and vicious smear campaign
I've ever seen in my life, and I have seen
a good many of them, having lived
through the New Deal era. Secondly, I
think il i- iitlerh ridiculous to say that
Senator McCarth) made no contributions to the anti-Communist fight ami
let's met go into all ihis nonsense about
how man) -pie's eliel he turn up.
Combs: Let's discuss the facts.
de Toledano: No. Do you think that
the only way vnu fight communism is
to turn up spies?
COMBS: Oh, hv no means.
de Toledano: Because by that
Ink.'II . . .
Covins: Oh. no.
de Toledano: .. .then you're the
w,,r-t anti-Communist in the world, because you don't even recognize that there
I eiMi'.s: I don'l — I think you're mad.
de Toledano: Well, this is the Mad
Halter's lea party and we should all move
nver one seat.
Combs: No, I recognize and have
always recognized the menace of that.
Ill RT: WC're rehashing some ver. old
arguments here which are very interesting
to rehash, but lo summarize llii-. Professor Hodge- sa.s he has absolutely no
ebanee of coming back. He won't gel any
publicity. He's not in the public eye anymore.
Hodces: Unless he can create that
Itl'RT: Mr. Comb- -a.-, of eour-e he
can't come back and Mr. de Toledano
says. . .
Buckley: I don'l Ihink. Mr. Hurt, that
a cancer specialist who cures a case of
cancer i- going to be called back b\ theit
patient, is he? There's nothing left for
him to do.
Hodges: I don'l ihink it's heen cured.
DE Toledano: I wish it had been
Combs: You see, there's always a fragmenting of the extreme right, of this
hard core of anti-Communists which I
find rather illuminating. These gentlemen, let us say, are united on a common
purpose but for entirely differenl reasons. And their approach to Senator McCarthy would justify bis comeback because of entirely different grounds. Is
it true that he has cured communism, or
is it true that it is non-existent? What
do you say, Mr. Buckley?
Ill i M.l.v: Well. I would -ay il is true.
Mr. Combs, that Senator McCarthy
brought to the security problem a kind
nf hardness and a kind ..f skepticism
which needed to he brought to a security
program in order to put teeth into it.
I'm terribly afraid that there has been
a reversion, recently, incidentally, I'm
terribly afraid thai the liberal sentimentalists are gelling more powerful than
they ought to.
Combs: You're abandoning your clinical simile.
BUCKLEY: In which case we might
again in the fulure have a domestic security problem. (In the other band we have
certain corpses which will he hard tn
ic\ ive like Owen l.atlimiire. Kdward Pos-
niak and John Carter, etc.
CoMBS: I see. I would suggest that
you had said the surgeon had sun ess.
fully excised lhe malignant growth bul
it was now metastisiz.ing again. There's
a certain inconsistency in your point.
Ill ( ki.ev: Quite, that's right. And if
so the surgeon will he recalled.
RliRT: Let's get lo this next question.
Are any present investigating committees
of Congress pursuing the same mean- and
using methods similar to those identified
nr. Toledano: I would say that the
congressional committees today are living under a reign of terror imposed b)
the liberals who have stampeded Congress into being afraid nf anv congressional investigations of communism. On
the question of McCarthy's methods, I
have read reams on that and I have yet
te. find '.nt wheit anybody means by McCarthy's methods. There is no set method
to McCarthy and there has never heen
and there never will be.
COMBS: That's right.
Itl'RT: Well, what is vour answer to
BUCKLEY: With one exception I would
say. Anil I would like In point nol In
myself this time bul to some very shrew.I
man who says, "At the heart of what is
derisively called McCarthyism lies in
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