Covins: As a mallei ol fact, I dare
say lhat Air. Burnham could, withoul
difficulty, find sponsorship for lhe enunciation of his rather extraordinary views.
BUCKLEY: Aon say lhal Mr. Burnham
is distinguished from other people because he meets your particular qualifications as an intellectual .. .
Covins: Mr. Buckley, I don't think
vou would encounter any difficulty in
finding sponsorship for your own rather
BURT. Would vou like to have the job
as agent, Mr. Combs?
lie i vi us: Thai is one that 1 believe I
would eschew for lhe moment.
Burnham: Mr. Combs is giving this
verv strange aura to the term "soeial
sanctions" eis if Mr. Buckley and I were
proposing lhal lhe liberal intellectuals
should he taken oul and pul in concentration camps . . .
Combs: Oh, no. no. no. no, no! No,
theit isn't w heel w els -elid.
Burnham: Or things ,,f thai sort.
Well, whal In the world is more natural
than lo favor those whom one believes
have the correct answers to mir country's
problems occupying, for example, the
important posi> in tin- Steile Department? Social sanctions mean throwing
people out of pobcy-directing positions
in the f-teile- Department who are leading our country .. .
Covins: Those arc political sanctions.
Ill umi v\i: ... into it- own destruction. No. thev re also economic sanctions, ll loses joles and ei very fine- thing
il is for the country thai some of them
recently like .John Stewart Service, like
John P. Davies and so on. . . . Thai's
lln -oil of sanction we're talking about.
Covins: I would suggest in reply t"
Mr. Buckley's assertion lhat lhe liberals
have' -led.hid us in the- back and the
liberals have brought us lo this present
state of distress that, while there hasn't
been quite enough intellectual planning
in the presenl administration, tin- country does not seem io l.e- prostrate. I ve
sce-n no ev idence of mass misery. I've
seen verv little proof of lhal degree of
-.». ieil dislocation which is about to bring
revolution. I think lhe intellectuals have'
done very well.
Buckley : I ihink these ein- highly
I'eillous statements lo make lo a society
lhal has just lived through I line' wars
in a period of thirty years and faces eit
point blank range lhe grealesl and solid-
est and mosl formidable enemy lhal
civilization has ever seen, thai is forcing 30 per cent of its income to Iry to
buy ourselves some kind of reprieve
from tbe mistakes thai have been made
by our liberal leadership over the' pasl
COMBS: A on would have had us oppose fascism, I take it?
Buckley: Arc you bringing in fas-
here? \\ hal connection .
Covins: You said that mistakes had
Buckley: So what? Nov, this is the
liberal's mind at work.
(inxins: Well, of course'. Germany was
fascist emd Italy was a Fascist country.
Japan was a Fascist country. You would
not have had us oppose' their encroachments?
BUCKLEY: And the Soviet I'nion was
a Communist country.
Combs: No. no. no. Answer my question. Would you not have had us oppose
Buckley: I'm saying thai if Mr.
Burnham, or anybody whom he desig-
neileil. heul been iii charge of our foreign
poliev starting from 1938 on. we would
nol he in our present plight because he
did not fall for lhe Communists after
1938 and 1939. Hut lhe liberals almost
lee a man did. with lhe resull lhal while
we- we're Irvine In beeii Hitler here, all
we did was transfer lhe center of totalitarian power from Berlin lo Moscow and
reinforce it tremendously in the process.
Covins: I ihink you have to narrow
vour argument a good dci\\. Forget aboul
ihose three world wens that we improvi-
Ih CKLEY: I'm saying that linn i-
no justification for your Pollyannish
talk here eiboitt how prosperous and well
off we are In the face of this terrible
plight. Il's irresponsible.
Covins: I ihink. as a mailer of fad.
we're very well off. indci'd. if there were
a little higher content of planning.
BURT: Are the American people suspicious of intellectuals or do the people
look to intellectuals for political and economic leadership?
Hodces: I should sav thai the people
are nol sufficiently politically alert to
classify in ihis particular manner. I
suppose that il's a question of nol
bothering about egg beads, to lake ei
popular expression. . . . Now il seems to
me thai leadership response in America
i- essentially glandular ami certainly nol
intellectual. I Ihink we follow heroes:
we stampede along an emotional line
I don'l think there's much intellectual
elceision ils vii.
Bucki.ev : 1 Ihink il's the opposite.
Burnham: I ihink in much of the
country lhe people are growing suspicious of intellectuals and with very-
good reason reason, al least, looked al
in lhe short view.
They ein- suspicious of them because
they see some of their fruits. They see—
eunl much heller than lhe papers and
commentators very often give them
credit for il they see what has hap-
pcneil in the international position of
this country. They see the consolidation
of so much of lhe world against us. Thev
see thc facl that we- are unable to acl
effectively againsl it precisely because
we- have followed the advice of intellectuals, especially ihe liberal and lefl
intellectuals who have- been dominating
public opinion in Ihis country and who
have been dominating lhe Slate Department and the other agencies of the government lhal determine foreign policy.
This suspicion, in mv opinion, is unfortunate in one sense- because il tends
to become a suspicion of intelligence and
of intellectual work in general instead of
being directed elgelinsl these specific persons who eire lhe authors of lhe difficult
position, lhe almost desperate position
in which we now find ourselves.
Hi CKLEY: I'd like' lo jusl amplify
whal Mi. Burnham has been saying and
al lhe same time remark on Mr. Hodges
slatemcnt bv seiv ing llieit. unfortunately,
lhe American response is not visceral. If
il had been visceral they would nol have
been so willing lo forgive our leaders
for lhe terrible and costly and bloody
mistakes that they have made. Nor would
they he willing In forgive one atrocity
after the other thai have been traceable
lo lhe Soviel Union. I believe we need
more emotion, more passion, ;i visceral
response, indeed right from the
I would sav Mr. Burnham therefore
put bis finger on il when he setvs thai
wc musl never allow our resentment over
tin' terrible specific errors made by our
intellectual leadership in lhe leisl thirty
years to turn us into agents of anti-
inlelleclualism. as such. This. I hope we'
will nol do. The people who arc conducive In such an attitude enc lhe liberals
who really stick io their outworn and
Burnham: Or he anti-intellectual in
Covins: r should like lo call lo the
attention of Air. Burnham. who has
peisseal this einimaelv iTsion upon lhe U1'
telleeluals in power, lhat thev eire responsible for social security; thev are
responsible for unemployment insurance; thev an- responsible for the possible adjustment uf monetary policies
and credit lo prevent deflation; thev are
responsible' for ihis presenl stable world-
Therefore il would seem In me- th*'
it ill behooves him lo criticize tl"'
pioneering work of men who were llrnk'
ing constructively, simplv because ™"
would like In retire into lln- sarcophagi"
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